JOSH: Hello, and welcome to Clearer Thinking with Spencer Greenberg, the podcast about ideas that matter. I'm Josh Castle, the producer of the podcast, and I'm so glad you've joined us today. In this episode, Spencer speaks with Jacob Skidmore, "The Nameless Narcissist", about sociopathy and psychopathy, life with narcissistic personality disorder, and ego and defense mechanisms.

SPENCER: Jacob, welcome.

JACOB: Hi. Thank you for having me.

SPENCER: So are you a narcissist?

JACOB: I think so. My diagnosis papers say so. So I'm going to go with yes [laughs].

SPENCER: How was it that you came to be diagnosed as a narcissist?

JACOB: This is a long story, but I'll try to keep it brief. Basically, my entire life, I knew something was kind of off. It's like going to funerals, everyone's crying, and I'm like, "Oh, they're faking it for attention," and I just didn't feel anything. I thought everybody was being performative whenever emotionality was exhibited and I could tell something was off. Early on in my life, it wasn't that big of an issue, but the more I leaned into my more maladaptive behaviors, I started to get kind of violent, angry, manipulative, stuff like that, and I started messing up my life. I always asked myself, "Why do I do these things?" Because of a court order, when I was 16, I actually entered therapy, and that was the first time it was mentioned. They were like, "Oh, you have some heavy narcissistic traits." I don't think I was officially diagnosed then, but I was a kid, so it was like, "Whatever, shrink. I don't care." As my life went on, burning more and more relationships, not really understanding why I was wrong, and having this curiosity about myself, which I do think is a manifestation of my self-absorption, ended me up in therapy again after I cheated on my girlfriend. I was like, "I cheated on a really nice girl, and she's really good for me. Again, why did I do that?" I went into therapy, and after lying to the therapist for two years, I eventually started being open. I will never forget the day there was kind of a shift because I was talking about one of my friends, and I was like, "They think they understand me. They really don't." My therapist was probably bored out of her mind, and I just sat back in the chair, exhausted from my anger. I said, "But it's not surprising, because they're all so stupid." My therapist, wide-eyed, looked at me and said, "What?" I said, "I mean, look at them. They all complain that I think I'm better than them, but look at them compared to me. I'm more attractive, I'm more charming, I'm more intelligent." She was like, "Aren't these your friends?" I was like, "Well, yeah, most of them, whatever." Very quickly after that, I had a moment where I was like, "Oh, that felt good to get out." Then she said, "Well, I'm humbled." I looked at her and said, "Are you mocking me?" Very quickly after that is when my diagnosis came.

SPENCER: Now, do you think you've always been this way, as long as you can remember, or do you think you became this way?

JACOB: Primarily, I think it became this way. Think about yourself, I think that everybody has significant changes throughout their life. I imagine you can think of how you were as a kid compared to now. I was actually pretty emotional as a kid. I once cried because I was afraid of what would happen to my stuffed animal after I died, stuff like that. I was very sensitive. Due to a lot of the drama, I think I just kind of became more calloused in order to deal with it. I'm trying to think of a way to put it; Over time, I do think the main thing is that, because I was never appreciated for being a person and only for achievements, that's the only way that I learned to regulate my self-esteem. Since I can't feel good about myself, I can only feel better about myself than others.

SPENCER: Were there certain behaviors your parents engaged in that you think reinforced that?

JACOB: I was a "gifted kid." There were a lot of forms of abuse in the household, but I think the one that really kind of made us go down the path we did is that I had high expectations from a young age because everyone thought I was a genius. My parents thought I was a prodigy in drawing, and the only time I was paid attention to, other than meetings, was when they were able to use me basically and say, "Oh, look how smart our kid is; what he did, blah, blah, blah." The only time that anything I would engage in was really shows of interest was when they could use it for their own self-esteem regulation, their own gratification. There's actually a term for this called using somebody as a narcissistic extension, which a lot of people say, "Oh narcissists are born from narcissists." Which are two of the greatest myths but anybody can use somebody as a narcissistic extension. It's when you're basically projecting your own wants and self-esteem needs onto somebody and using them vicariously to achieve this. Think of the dad who wants their son to become the best baseball player because he was never able to do it. Stuff like that. According to literature, that's usually how that manifests most of the time, when parents use their children as narcissistic extensions.

SPENCER: Do you think your parents are narcissists?

JACOB: My dad is diagnosed with OCD, depression, anxiety, and autism, but he rejects that label, so I'm not going to say that he is. My mother is neurotic, and I suspect that she might have histrionic personality disorder, but I don't think she's officially diagnosed with anything.

SPENCER: It would be really interesting to hear your opinion on what the core of narcissism is. If you read the DSM, there are lots of different traits. I also have an opinion on it that I'd like to run by you to get your thoughts. In my opinion, just to start off, the core of it is that narcissists want to feel good about themselves and may have trouble feeling good about themselves. In particular, they want to feel superior to others and avoid feeling worse than others. This leads to a lot of the other things associated with narcissism, for example, grandiosity, tension-seeking, and seeking admiration. One of the most common things you see from narcissists is that they seem to be trying to get attention so that they can get admiration or idealism, something like worship. That's how I think about the core. What would you say? What would you agree with or disagree with? How would you talk about what's at the core?

JACOB: I think you kind of nailed it. If I'm being honest, I think that's how I largely view it. I want to go into a little more detail about it because we have to remember, with the DSM, the biggest issue is that they wanted to take the diagnosis out of the DSM for a little bit because clinicians thought it was such a bad way to describe this pathology. When you're a therapist in the office, you can't delve into the internal experience of somebody immediately. You have to identify what they're presenting to you in the clinical setting at first so that you can identify it and then make a treatment plan for them. I would say that, but I think that largely, you're very correct. I always say that basically, "If we can't feel good about ourselves, we have to find another way to do so," and this manifests in feeling superior to others. I always say, "There's no self-love; it's just grandiosity, it's just superiority." That need is so strong because, for people who don't like themselves deep down and can't feel good about themselves, that need basically dominates everything in their life. They're willing to screw anything else up just to get that need met.

SPENCER: What about the attention piece? Would you agree with what I said there that, "Essentially, when you're with narcissists, you see a huge amount of this manifesting as seeking attention and admiration?"

JACOB: It goes into contingent self-esteem. A big part of it is others' appraisal of ourselves is how we feel good about ourselves. I have a friend who is diagnosed with MPD as well, and she said something to me once that always stuck with me, "Do you know how other people know who they are if they're not being told?" Oh my god, I never related to something more. It's like, "I don't know who I am if you're not telling me who I am." That's why nurses can be really hyper-vigilant to what people are thinking and feeling about them, because they're relying on that in order to just even know who they are at the end of the day. They have an idea of what they want to be perceived as, obviously, so they can feel good about themselves, but deep down, they don't know who they are. I always say narcissists don't mask. We are the mask. I am a mask.

SPENCER: It's interesting because when I talk to psychopaths, they say a similar thing: they struggle to know who they really are; they feel like they have no core self other than what the environment is making them behave like right now.

JACOB: Out of curiosity, do they self-identify as psychopaths or sociopaths?

SPENCER: That's a good question. Generally speaking, the ones I talked to were kind of indifferent between the labels. One told me they like "psychopath" better because it's better understood internationally. I think some like "sociopath" because they feel like it's maybe a little bit less stigmatized, although they're both stigmatized. So, yeah, I think it varies.

JACOB: Because in the DSM, there's not a distinction between them, but there's actually a big difference between psychopaths and sociopaths, where psychopaths are kind of your... I don't want to say Ted-Bundy-type, but what you would say, the cold, callous, calculated, but sociopaths are actually really impulsive and very neurotic, very shame-filled, very angry. I was just kind of curious, because although they're lumped under the same label, they can present so differently. My girlfriend's a sociopath, and trust me, she is very far away from being calculated. Well, she's calculated, but she's so impulsive. It's hard for her to actually be able to get her plans to fruition because she just lashes out so readily.

SPENCER: What is that like? The interactions between a narcissistic sociopath, how does that manifest?

JACOB: Well, she hasn't killed me yet, so that's probably a good thing [laughs]. The main thing is, usually we act really well together, but both of us are so prone to anger, so prone to shame, that we do have some moments where we get really up in each other's faces. Not much physical, on my end, nothing has happened. I should say that. What honestly makes it work is because we both know that we have these pathologies. We are honestly more forgiving than we would be otherwise because we're both messed up. It is what it is; we can just kind of move on. Some of the things that we have done in our arguments would traumatize people, but for us, we're just kind of like, "Whatever, another day."

SPENCER: I think it's actually a really good opportunity to talk about the differences between narcissism and psychopathy, also known as antisocial personality disorder, because I think people confuse them a lot. I suspect part of the reason for that is that there are a few traits in common: low empathy is common in both, manipulativeness, obviously hurting people emotionally, and then also anger. These are all kinds of commonalities, but on the other hand — at least in my experience, and please correct me if I'm wrong — I find that narcissists are much more prone to fear, whereas most psychopaths I've talked to seem to have very, very low fear. I also find that narcissists are much more attention and admiration-seeking, whereas sociopaths might strategically seek it just to achieve some end, but they don't seem to evaluate it for its own sake. Finally, on the empathy front — I don't know; I'd be really curious to get your thoughts on this — I find that sociopaths seem to have less ability to feel empathy, whereas narcissists seem to fluctuate more. At least in the systems I've been around, they do seem to feel empathy at times, and other times, especially when it's pitted against their own needs, their empathy kind of goes to zero. So, yeah, I know that's a lot, but I'm curious about your reactions.

JACOB: Yeah, I'm actually kind of impressed because you obviously have a better understanding of this than most people I've talked to. Another shared trait between psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists is grandiosity. A lot of times people do, because you said you talked to psychopaths, I imagine they've probably said something along the lines of, "Oh yeah, everyone's stupid for not acting the way that I do." The thing is, what I find to be the biggest difference is that the grandiosity in psychopaths isn't conditional. Narcissists are basically chasing that grandiosity. A psychopath just believes they're better than everybody else, and maybe they are to some degree. But they aren't driven by that need for self-esteem regulation. I always say narcissists are primarily driven by the need to feel superior in their self-esteem, but psychopaths, like sociopaths, are more driven by material gain. When it comes to empathy, I find the empathy component gets really confusing for me because I actually don't have empathy. Basically, I'm a more severe form of lacking empathy. Most people don't know this, but there's one study that shows that only around 44% of narcissists actually lack empathy.

SPENCER: Hmm, interesting. So you don't tend to feel empathy. Do you think you've ever felt empathy?

JACOB: Not really. I can't think of an instance where I felt it. The only times I feel like I might be feeling empathy is when I see children being mistreated. I'll get really angry, and it triggers something in me. I don't know if that's empathy or me projecting my own past onto those kids.

SPENCER: I've seen this with animals. For example, a narcissist I know loves animals, and I've seen him go way out of his way to help animals in a way that I really felt wasn't being driven by admission-seeking.

JACOB: Yeah, it's one of the more genuine interactions I see narcissists have by compassion. Because, similarly, animals would be another good example. Usually, it's wild animals I'm indifferent towards, but if I see an owner mistreating their pet, that will get me riled up, and that's definitely not driven by admiration seeking, because it's hard to get admiration from an animal.

SPENCER: Would you agree, though, that sociopaths typically are lacking empathy more so than narcissists, whereas narcissists could feel empathy but maybe when it's pitted against their own self-interest, the empathy goes away?

JACOB: That's my theory, honestly. I'm not entirely sure, but from my experience, it looks like for me, from what I've seen and my own experience, I'm a little bit more severe in lacking empathy than most narcissists I know, but usually it seems like they don't have an issue having empathy, as long as it's not a threat to their self-image and self-esteem. If, let's say, you and I got into a fight, if I felt like I was being attacked or that I was offensive, stuff like that, there's literally no empathy there. But if you told me some story that maybe I could relate to, I think there's something resembling empathy there, at least. And that's what I usually see with most narcissists. With sociopaths and psychopaths, sociopaths are a little bit more complicated. Psychopaths don't care. But what I find interesting is that with sociopaths, a lot of the time, they genuinely do not understand what it is that they did wrong in a way of, "You deserved it, you know what I mean? What did you expect to happen? It's dumb that you're upset about that." I kind of have that, but it's a little more pronounced, because at least I can take a step back and be like, "I understand why they're reacting like that, even though it's dumb."

SPENCER: Yep. And then on the fear point, my sense is that narcissists have very typical fear profiles and anxiety profiles, so they're not really different from the general population. Unlike sociopaths.

JACOB: They're actually more anxious.

SPENCER: Oh, they're more anxious. Interesting.

JACOB: There's one study that was done shows that they actually have a higher baseline of anxiety and stress hormones than people with generalized anxiety disorder do, which makes sense, because you're basically assessing the environment all the time, wondering, "Oh, my God, what does this person think about me?" because that's the only way I can feel good about myself. But yeah, I would say, "On the other hand, psychopaths don't feel fear or anxiety, really."

SPENCER: Another thing that I think confuses a lot of people is that narcissists can come across as very arrogant. They may brag and be grandiose, and so they think, "Oh, narcissists are really confident." So is that true? Are narcissists confident? What's really the truth?

JACOB: That's such a hard question to answer because I understand the confusion around it. It's like, yes, and no. It's like, I'm incredibly insecure, but also incredibly confident. It partially depends on how much people are thinking about me at the time. I will become more grandiose, confident, and have a self-esteem boost, as long as I'm getting the reactions that I want. But then what you see is, if you take grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, when they're not getting that reaction, narcissists usually become the grandiose, arrogant, domineering type. But then if they aren't, they'll become vulnerable. They'll become very introverted, kind of hide themselves away, very sensitive to criticism, and ready to lash out, paranoid, etc. And so it's like, even when I'm grandiose, I believe it, but I also still think I'm worthless. I don't even know how to describe it. It's really hard because it sounds so contradictory to most people, I imagine.

SPENCER: It's kind of like when you're feeling built up and your ego feels really good, but there's some level of niggling doubt, like, "Am I really?"

JACOB: Yeah. There's a doubt in the back of my head of what a good example is. I remember the first time I was ever interviewed for a newspaper, and I literally was, so narcissists can get almost manic when they get enough self-esteem. I call it self-esteem juice. I think it's a funny term, but when you get enough self-esteem juice, they can become manic, very hyper, very I'm the best person ever, but even in the back of my head, then I'm like, "What if this doesn't happen again? What about the next thing that happens? What if this is my peak?" And then usually that kind of manic state lasts maybe 30 minutes, and then it's anxiety over the next step to elevate myself further, if that makes sense.

SPENCER: Do you have times when you feel like your ego mostly collapses and you just feel like, "I'm the worst?"

JACOB: Almost daily? I mean, I wouldn't say daily, but it's very common, especially if I'm drinking or something, and I don't have people around me. Before I was diagnosed, I never showed anybody this. It would just be me in my room, just self-isolating. If I get a good enough hit to my ego, I will self-isolate for three days at a time because I don't want to see anybody, because I feel so humiliated and ashamed and just don't want anybody to look at me. And that's pretty common. I wish I would have brought this up earlier, when I mentioned that they want to take the diagnosis of NPD from of DSM-5. They actually had a task force to redo the personality disorders, and they made a new alternative criteria, which is still in DSM, but under Section 3, where basically they had a more spectrum model. One of the things that they noted in it, and it did get implemented because of politics and community, but in the spectrum model, it notes the fluctuating self-esteem of special unworthiness and special uniqueness and superiority that there's a tendency to fluctuate for most narcissists.

SPENCER: You can imagine how this might link to sensitivity to criticism, where a narcissist might find it really difficult to take even well-meaning constructive criticism, because it could kind of cause ego collapse. Is that your experience?

JACOB: Yes. Even advice feels like you're just telling me that I'm stupid and should be doing something better, if that makes sense. I have a friend who has TikTok. He's like, "Have you considered doing this with your TikTok?" And I was thinking, "Oh, what? You think you're so much better than me that I'm just doing these wrong things?" At this point, I was able to kind of shove that down. But that is how separating criticism from negative assessment, almost doesn't make sense to me.

SPENCER: Do you get angry in these situations? Or is it typical for nurses to get angry when someone criticizes them?

JACOB: Oh god, yeah. That's one of the biggest issues with having this disorder, is how unbridled I can become because I'm so hypersensitive to this criticism, or perceived criticism more accurately, that I'll fly off the handle because all I can hear is, basically, you try to give me advice, all I can hear is, "You're stupid. You should be doing it this way. You're so dumb. I'm better than you. I can tell you how to do this better," etc. Okay, actually, I'm curious. How does that work for normal people when you hear constructive criticism, what's going through your head?

SPENCER: It's funny because I'm super abnormal. When I first started this podcast, I paid 40 people to criticize the first three episodes. So I'm way on some weird, bizarre spectrum where I'm much less sensitive to criticism than normal people are. So I unfortunately can't answer that.

JACOB: Fair. Okay. What's going through your mind when you got that criticism, man?

SPENCER: My response to it is, my brain's like, "Do I agree with what this person said?" If I agree, "Oh, cool. Okay, that's something I can prove." If I disagree, "Oh, I disagree. This person's wrong," so it doesn't matter what they said. So look, I meant to say, I'm not going to say that I'm totally immune to criticism. There are types of criticism that cut to my core. In fact, my particular sensitivities are around, I think of myself as a very logical person who tries to think carefully about evidence. So if I get a criticism that's like, "I was sloppy thinking about evidence," that can kind of cut me. But it produces, for me, more of a stress response, like, "Oh my god, did I not act in accordance with my own values?" I get anxious more than anger, I would say.

JACOB: See, this actually ties into what I was kind of saying earlier. That just reminded me of it, a lot of the time, people don't talk about this enough. Because we rely on other people to assess who we are and to give us identity, you can say anything about me, no matter how blatantly untrue it is, and it will still cut to my core, because it feels true, because somebody is making that assessment about me.

SPENCER: How do you deal with social media? I have people say semi-mean stuff to me all the time.

JACOB: Oh my god, I barely do honestly, and this is that I've actually considered leaving social media. One of my close friends used to go by Spirit Narc online. She was also a narcissist. She had to leave for that very reason because she just couldn't handle it. Early on, we would spend days just arguing with people who made the slightest criticism about us. Nowadays I can kind of remind myself, "They're not talking about you. They're talking about maybe their ex-partner or their parental figure." If it's particularly mean, this is actually a good symptom of NPD, where, "They're just envious of me. I don't care." They're basically turning the insult into a way to gratify my own self-esteem.

SPENCER: That's so interesting. One thing we've kind of been touching on, I want to make sure we talked about it directly, is the sense of entitlement. It seems to me that narcissists often feel like they deserve more than other people. What is that about?

JACOB: I'll be real. This is the symptom of mine that I have the hardest time identifying. For me, I'm trying to think of an example off the top of my head, but there's always this justification that happens. Let's say I were to steal something. It's like, "Well, I did this thing for this person, so I deserve to be able to take this. Or I would do this for them, so whatever." I think the most telling one is when I feel, "I deserve what they have because I'm smarter. If I had what they had, I would be doing way better than even they are." It's a lot of logical loops that get thrown around. But again, entitlement is by far my worst one to identify because I didn't think I even had that symptom until I talked to some people and they were like, "You're a little entitled," especially around loyalty. Like, "Oh, you even said hi to a person I hate; you're betraying me. How dare you?"

SPENCER: That's interesting because that's another thing. I didn't have this in my notes, but it's something I've just observed anecdotally about narcissists. There tends to be a very much "you're with me, or you're not with me" kind of mentality. I've experienced them cutting someone out very suddenly because the person did some small slight. When you're on their team, they also almost want to build you up, like, "You're so amazing, you're fantastic." But it almost ends up feeling like just another form of narcissism: "You're on my team, therefore you're amazing."

JACOB: I call this shared grandiosity, where if you're associated with me, that means you're also a special person. It's not just that I'm better; we're the best in comparison to the rest of the world. And that betrayal aspect, where as soon as you do anything I don't approve of, all of a sudden, you're just like the rest of these stupid people out there. It's one of those things that's very unconscious when it happens, because if you're in my circle, I will justify basically anything you do, as long as it's not against me. But if you're outside my circle, "You're worthless and stupid, whatever, you don't matter." Usually, it's more indifference, but you know what I mean? A big part of it is that narcissists not only want to elevate themselves by feeling like the people around them are also special, but they also have this need for connection, and they don't really know how to achieve that. That's kind of the closest they get to it. They put this weird emphasis on loyalty because to them, it is the only thing that resembles what would look like love to a traditional person.

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SPENCER: So interesting. This also reminds me that I think another kind of confusion people have is that someone will be really complimentary, paying compliments all the time, and they think of that as being un-narcissistic. There are altruistic people that pay a lot of compliments as a form of altruism. But I think there could be a narcissistic element to giving other people compliments, where, first of all, it's a way of seeking admiration. If some compliments make you feel really good, do you like them? There's a way in which it could be narcissistic to compliment others so you get admiration back, and they're likely to pay you compliments back; it'll be reciprocal. And then, of course, there's the group narcissism you mentioned, where, "They're on your team, so of course, they're amazing. They're the best."

JACOB: I won't lie, 90% of the time if I pay somebody a compliment, it's for the purpose that I'm fishing for a compliment. Let's say I talked to one of my friends who has a TikTok profile or something. I'm like, "Oh my God, you have such a good profile. You give such good information." Half of me is fishing for a compliment, wanting them to return that to me and find things to compliment about me. And again, there's the other aspect of it, of, "Oh yeah, you're associated with me. Of course, you're the best. Of course, you're better than all these others. We're better than everybody else." That happens a lot.

SPENCER: You just reminded me of something, which is that, you were asking me earlier how I respond when I get criticism. There's a flip side to the way that I'm fairly non-reactive to criticism, which is that I'm also fairly non-reactive to compliments. I just don't feel very good getting compliments either. I think it's kind of a similar mental processing of, "If I already believe the thing, then that doesn't really affect me. If I don't believe it, it doesn't affect me either." Not to say it's 100%, like there's occasionally a really perfect compliment that makes me feel really good, but I tend to feel much better if someone says, "You helped my life in some way," than if someone compliments me. I think it's tying into my values of, "Oh, that's what I'm trying to do."

JACOB: Do you ever get offended by compliments?

SPENCER: No, it doesn't even process. Why would that happen?

JACOB: Okay, so this is kind of weird. For me, if I get a compliment, especially if it's in comparison to somebody else, I eat it up. I love it. It's like, "Oh, you're attractive, you're smart, stuff." If it's surface-level stuff. But I will almost get, not angry, but if somebody's like, "Oh, you're a good person." I either feel like, "Oh, well, then you don't actually know me. Oh, I tricked you. I feel insulted, or I feel like they're trying to flatter me or patronize me, or what have you." I can get really annoyed by it. I usually won't say anything.

SPENCER: I'm not sure I understand why that bothers you. Can you unpack that a bit?

JACOB: Because it doesn't feel true. I don't know. That's the main thing is that, "Oh, well, then you're stupid and don't actually know me, so whatever. That's dumb."

SPENCER: It would be like someone complimenting you on something that you knew. There's no way they could really come to that conclusion that they're full of shit.

JACOB: And imposter syndrome is actually a big thing with narcissistic personality disorder. A lot of things can kind of elicit that reaction, especially since I feel fake all the time. I can never tell if it's real or not, but yeah, a lot of times it just doesn't resonate. We're basically immediately jumping to, especially if it's something about us as a person, it doesn't feel true because one: we don't even feel like we know who we are, but also we have a sense of self-hatred. So it's like, "Oh, if you're telling me I'm a good person or saying something about my character that's positive." But doesn't really resonate with this feeling of, "oh, I'm intrinsically bad,' then, 'oh, you're just flattering me. Oh, you don't actually know me. Oh, you're mocking me," etc., etc.

SPENCER: Do people ever manipulate you because they know how much you care about getting admiration, and do they kind of use it against you?

JACOB: Here's the thing. I'm really blind to it because I'm getting manipulation a lot of times just as a way people interact. "I know they want something out of this, and I'm getting something out of it, so I don't care." Unless I feel like I'm trying to get a fool out of, for example, I have one buddy who has to stop doing this. If I'm not replying to him because I'm busy and he really wants to talk to me, he'll say something overwhelming, like, "Dude, you won't believe who blah, blah, blah said about you." I'll call him in a second.

SPENCER: Oh no.

JACOB: He doesn't mean bad by it but it works. I do think narcissists are actually particularly prone to being manipulated, especially since our grandiosity makes us think a lot of times that we are immune to it. We're master manipulators. We're not easy to take advantage of.

SPENCER: I find that unlike psychopaths who are really being strategic a lot of the time, narcissists are seeking something, and because they're seeking something, if you kind of know what they're seeking, it becomes a little more transparent.

JACOB: Yeah, I agree. If you know what a narcissist is about and it's hard to explain, but trust me, if people who watch my videos knew enough about me, they could manipulate me so easily. I think the reason that most people don't is one: morals, but two: also, it's just because of how bizarre behavior comes off, sometimes they can't figure it out at first, but once you do, "Yeah, we're fucked."

SPENCER: If you could push your magic button to lower your narcissism by 50%, would you just unhesitatingly push it?

JACOB: See, I actually thought about this quite a bit, because usually I get asked it more categorically. The 50% aspect of it kind of throws me off a little bit. But I would say that I would, assuming that it would be like a restart on my life, because where I'm at right now, having a personality disorder, you get so used to operating in a certain way. "What would I even be like? What do normal people even do?" I've heard people who are autistic talk similarly about this, where it's like, "I don't know, that seems kind of scary." If I could restart my life, though, hands down, I would, because it is associated with low quality of life and PTSD and anxiety, depression, and I'm kind of a miserable person in general. But if I was just shoved into a world all of a sudden where I was so used to being like that, and then, "Oh, hey, now you're not a narcissist anymore, it's like, oh, that's cool. I don't know what to do anymore," because I'm pretty active in a lot of communities of people who are diagnosed with MPD, and a common fear we share is that, "If we heal, are we just going to be like this raw person who has no strategy behind them? We can't defend ourselves, we're just at the whims of everyone around us, and that's a fear I have a lot too."

SPENCER: What if you couldn't start life over, but it only reduced your narcissism by 10%? Would that be an easy choice or not?

JACOB: Honestly, for me, my knee-jerk reaction is if I'm not completely getting rid of it, then I don't want to get rid of any of it.

SPENCER: Why is that?

JACOB: Because this is not logical. This is a pathological thought of mine, but I do have this association, and I do think a big part of this is because of how the media portrays narcissists: master manipulators. They can do whatever they want or hurt you. That does make me feel powerful. It makes me feel good sometimes. This is a miserable existence, but that inadvertently does boost self-esteem. In the back of my mind, I believe that to a certain degree. So I'm like, "Well, if I'm less narcissistic and I'm still having all that negative stuff that happens because of it, but now I'm just getting my defenses reduced, the goods of it are being tainted." I know that's not logical or a sane thought, but that is my knee-jerk reaction.

SPENCER: Thanks for sharing that. Would you increase it if the magic button made it 10% higher?

JACOB: Maybe it depends on what you mean by increase it, I guess at that point, because there's grandiose narcissism and there's vulnerable narcissism, and if I was more grandiose, yeah, give me that button. I would push it a dozen times. I don't want any of the vulnerable stuff. I just want to be feeling better than everybody all the time. But if we talk about just pathological narcissism, where both of those traits kind of coincide, probably not, especially since I am a little bit more severe than a lot of people diagnosed.Like, "I don't know. I don't want to make my life worse at all. I'm good where I'm at."

SPENCER: You're at the perfect level of narcissism.

JACOB: I'm at the best level of narcissism. I'm better than all the other narcissists.

SPENCER: You mentioned that you're kind of miserable, could you explain that a bit more?

JACOB: One of my first symptoms that negatively impacted me, that I noticed when I was younger, is loneliness. Even nowadays, there's almost a despondency around it, because, "What if I can never connect to people genuinely?" I just feel lonely a lot. I've always felt alone for as long as I can really remember. There have been times where I've had partners who, looking back on it, sincerely said, "Oh, I care about you so much." I can't bring myself to believe it. I think, "Oh, you don't actually know me." There's a desperation when they would hug me, and it's obviously very emotional, but I still feel hollow. That sucks. It really does. That's one of the biggest reasons why I am so accepting of working on my pathological narcissism, because I'm tired of feeling lonely all the time. There are other aspects too, like the constant anxiety about, "I mean, hey, we saw earlier." When I came back and said, "I'm doing terrible. I'm so sorry." That constant insecurity and trying to assess what people are thinking about you. People ask me if it's exhausting, and forgive me, it's really not, because it's just how I live. It's just normal. But, yeah, it's not fun.

SPENCER: I imagine that also having those ego collapses is pretty painful.

JACOB: I would say that, yeah, it does suck. It's like knowing that if people aren't constantly worshiping you, especially once you're aware of it. I was able to compartmentalize a lot more before I was diagnosed, because I would have moments like that, but I could kind of cut it off for myself. But nowadays, there's that added layer of knowing what I want to get. If I am not getting the attention that I need, that sucks. Usually, I can't connect it as well in the moment, but it feels like being forced to confront the fact that you hate yourself. That's not fun.

SPENCER: You mentioned loneliness. Do you feel that narcissism impairs your ability to feel love?

JACOB: This is a question I have a struggle to answer. Actually, you're asking really good questions, by the way, I'm kind of impressed, because usually I get the classic, "Oh my God, why do narcissists gaslight?" I just get tired of this. But I feel like I love people. I think I care about people, but also I can't compare my experience to other people's, so I'm kind of back and forth on it.

SPENCER: If I think about what love feels like to me, I'm curious if it feels similar to you. If I look at my partner or my cat, I don't get it all the time, but some of the time I'll get this warm, glowy feeling almost in my body towards them, like, "Wow. It's kind of almost like this person's amazing, and I want to take care of them." Kind of feeling.

JACOB: Is it almost like admiration for them?

SPENCER: Well, no, because it's a very caring kind of feeling, like, "I want to care for them."

JACOB: Okay. So why I kind of had that moment is that my sister recently had a daughter, and I think that's the closest thing I can relate that to, like, "Oh, that's a baby. That's my niece. I like them. They're cool. We should keep it alive," and I have a concern over them. But I would say, when it comes to romantic partners, there's not really much of a connection. It comes in waves. Every now and then I think I have something similar to that, but most of the time, it's almost like a longing to feel closer to them in a physical way, sometimes, actually. It reminds me of, especially when I was younger, I didn't know how abnormal this was. I wouldn't say it's completely abnormal, but I almost wanted to shove them inside my rib cage because it felt like I just couldn't get close enough to them, and it's more of a painful desire rather than a warm, caring feeling, most of the time, I would say, when it comes to romantic partners. When it comes to friends, it's almost like a loyalty and obligation and protectiveness. But again, the warmth I don't really experience that often. It comes and goes.

SPENCER: Another aspect of that warmth I didn't mention is that it's also a very joyous feeling. But it sounds like what you're describing is almost like a feeling of being disconnected. You want to be closer. There's a lack there, right?

JACOB: That's a really good way of putting it, actually, yeah, because generally speaking, I don't feel that. Over the years, I've gotten better at it since I've been diagnosed, but when I do get that feeling, it's so fleeting. I'll get really wasted and feel something similar to that, and express that to them, and the next day I'm cold and don't feel a thing towards them. And that's obviously confusing for the partners I've been with, and I don't want to negate that it affects them negatively, but for me, it's just, "Oh, I can feel that briefly, but it can be gone in a second."

SPENCER: One of the most famous things about narcissism is that narcissists hurt people, usually emotionally, usually not physically, but maybe occasionally physically. Why do you think that narcissists commonly hurt people, if you agree with that characterization?

JACOB: I have a hard time talking about this, purely because I'm loyal to my other narcissists. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, obviously.

SPENCER: This is generally a perception that everyone has.

JACOB: But it's important to talk about people with personality disorders, because of how wild our behaviors can be, we do end up hurting people. I've hurt a lot of people in my life. I'm not shy about that; I'm kind of an asshole. But I would say that the main reason that happens, 99% of the time, it's not out of malice. It's out of an inability to not only understand ourselves, but also what causes other people to do things, misinterpretation of other people's intentions. I would say it's mainly just that we are so caught up in our own world most of the time that we don't even think about how we are affecting other people. Here's actually a good example of this. I remember once I went on this trip with somebody, and they brought along someone that I don't really get along with. There were about a dozen of us there, and I was intentionally putting some things in his head to mess with him because I was mad about something he did to me. I talked to my therapist about it, and I was like, "Oh, but he was a jerk to me. That was justified, wasn't it?" And then she was like, "Well, how do you think that impacted the other people there and their time?" And I was like, "Oh, I didn't think about that." To me, that was just a one-on-one interaction; I was getting revenge that felt justified. It didn't even occur to me that other people were going to be impacted by that because I was so focused on my singular goal of reasserting myself or getting revenge.

SPENCER: That's really a sweet point. So part of the harm this causes is just literally, they're not even thinking about other people's feelings. It's just that not on their radar.

JACOB: A bull in a china shop.

SPENCER: Totally. It seems to me that there's maybe another reason narcissists harm people, which is that they get angry because they feel their ego is hurt, even if the person who hurt them couldn't have possibly predicted that they would be hurt, or was trying to help.

JACOB: I would say that how narcissists hurt people the most is when they get vindictive. I want to talk about this part too. We also make people feel unvalued, again, not intentionally, but it's just because we are kind of closed off. I can talk about that more later. But basically, we can get so vindictive; it's probably one of the most harmful things that narcissists can engage in. A lot of the time, people will hurt us, and we think that they're doing it intentionally. It's like somebody has a brick and they accidentally drop it on your foot, and you're like, "You must have done that on purpose," because of our hyper-vigilance and paranoia. We very often do think that, again, let's say you gave me some constructive criticism. I'm like, "Oh, you're trying to put me down. I want to attack that because that was not fair, blah, blah, blah."

SPENCER: Right. And sometimes I imagine you can be pretty subtle. From the non-narcissist perspective, they might not even understand. They might think, "I don't understand. Why are you attacking me right now?" But maybe from your perspective, it's like, "Well, they just hurt you in some subtle way, and you feel like you're taking revenge on them."

JACOB: Yeah, a lot of times it can be, "Oh, I think they're doing a power play on me. They're trying to disrespect me." When I was 18 or so, I had a friend, we were at a party, and I had a meltdown because one of my buddies saw that I had some bagel. This is a joke between me and him nowadays, we're good friends, but he made two everything bagels with chive and onion cream cheese, which was my favorite, but they were my last two, and he made them. I blew up on him, saying that he was a piece of shit and he always does crap like this because I thought that was him trying to exert himself over me. I just completely unloaded on him. Everyone else was like, "What is going on?" But, yeah, you would have thought he killed my dog or something the way I was screaming at him. A lot of times we read into a lot of these social interactions through this lens of our hierarchical thinking, of how we think the world interacts with everybody else, that leads us to have these overreactions.

SPENCER: Would you say those are the two main drivers of nurses hurting people? One: lack of thinking about others' interests, and two: sort of retaliating?

JACOB: I would say those two primarily. I would say the third one that I feel is worth touching on is just our emotional distance in general, because every single partner I've ever had has said the same thing: "You meant the world to me and you made me feel like I didn't even matter, that you didn't care about me at all." That wasn't intentional on my end. I just didn't think about their emotions; it didn't even occur to me that I wasn't doing the right things in these relationships. When I was younger, before I was diagnosed, I'd get kind of defensive about that. It's like, "Oh, you're accusing me of being a bad boyfriend. How dare you?" But nowadays, it's just more of a confusion than anything else because I can't even wrap my mind around how I'm not making them feel loved. You know what I mean?

SPENCER: I think one thing that happens for most people is that as they get closer and closer to someone else, that person's interests actually become part of their interests in a very subconscious way, where they see their partner suffering in some way and they suffer. It's almost like their utility functions start to merge. If they see their partner happy, they feel happy. Their partner's interests become their interests. So maybe they're sensing a sort of lack of that happening.

JACOB: Yeah, I wonder if part of that feeling is almost subconscious, because I think I do a good job at pretending half the time. A lot of times I'll say that if they're upset about something, I'd be like, "Oh no, it's okay." I try to be attentive, and I think I do a good job at it usually. It's something I'm always going to wonder about.

SPENCER: But you're trying to do it, whereas other people, it just happens to them, right?

JACOB: Because I don't feel empathy for my partners at all. I care about them. I want them to be good and okay. If they came to me and said, "Oh, my dad died," I'd be like, "Oh no, that's terrible. What can I do for you?" I'm not feeling anything though. I just know that's what you're supposed to do.

SPENCER: No. But literally, my mood changes based on my partners. If they're happier, I just become happier. It's completely subconscious.

JACOB: That's so crazy to me. It sounds like magic to me, honestly. It's like your mood changed just because somebody else's did.

SPENCER: Transmission of emotion. Yeah, it's wild. So changing topics quite a bit, something I'm really curious about. I've studied a lot of cults throughout history, and it really strikes me that the leaders of cults seem to be usually extremely narcissistic. I don't know how much you've looked into different cults, but I'm wondering, what's your general thought on that?

JACOB: Oh, I want to preface this by saying that I always hesitate to make assumptions about pathology when it comes to public figures or famous people, because we only see one aspect of them most of the time. And I would say that, but my main thought on cult leaders, I'm trying to think of a good example off the top of my head, I don't know, Jim Jones, I guess. From what I see, usually these people don't tend to be as driven by admiration as a lot of people think. Because, to me, they wouldn't be as effective at it if they were, if that makes sense. They seem more driven by power, in my opinion, but that might be an extension of them seeking self-esteem regulation. I think the strategies that narcissists utilize to get their self-esteem regulation are the same ones that a lot of these influential people will use to gain a following, because it's effective for their separate goals. Basically, I think the driving factors are different, but the strategies employed are probably similar.

SPENCER: What are some of those strategies?

JACOB: I'm trying to think of a good one. I would say that shared grandiosity is a really good one, actually, because making people feel special keeps them around you. For narcissists, it's more based around, again, one part of it's flattery, obviously, but that shared specialness. And the alienating people that are outside your inner group. Finding scapegoats, more or less. Again, the goals of these are very different, but they're both very effective at getting almost a cult. When I was younger, whenever I had a group of friends, I would always call it a cult for that reason, because I was always very, "Oh, it's us against the world," kind of mindsets. I feel like there are a lot of ways that it differs, but I do see why people associate narcissism with a lot of these cults, for obvious reasons.

SPENCER: So do you see cult leaders as more psychopathic or more just power-seeking in the very kind of norm way of power-seeking?

JACOB: Well, I guess that's like, how do we even put somebody in a pathological box who does something like that? Again, Jim Jones, what could you even label somebody like that? And so if I had to, I would say they were probably more narcissistic, not narcissistic psychopathic. But at the same time, look at Jeffrey Dahmer. It's such a bizarre moment and personality profile. I can't even begin to really identify what really drove them. I feel like that's why you see so much contention when we talk about the pathologies of these people, is because they have a very unique personality profile most of the time.

SPENCER: Yeah, I have this phrase I use called singular people, where if you imagine plotting everyone as a point in personality space, many people are kind of near the middle, where most normies are. Some people are on the fringes, but there's a cluster around them. But then there are these people that are way out in the middle of nowhere. You're like, "Okay, that's a secret. What the heck is going on in that person's mind?"

JACOB: These are the people that made a new axis on that spectrum.

SPENCER: Exactly, yeah, Jeffrey Dahmer was clearly just completely bizarre, probably on the psychopathic spectrum, but not typical of the psychopath. Very, very bizarre. But I guess just to make the case, feel free to tell me I'm wrong here, but make the case for why I link narcissism to cult leaders. If you think about what cult leaders do, first of all, they say, "We're on a special mission. We're the only people that know we're gonna save the world". That just almost maxed out grandiosity. Second: while early on in the cult, it's not necessarily true, as the cults go on later, it seems like it ends up almost like worshiping the leaders as God, which feels to me like the ideal form of narcissistic supply. It's like, literally, you're being worshiped. It's like, holy shit, they've just maxed out admiration.

JACOB: That's my question about it so much, is that, because I've thought about this quite a bit. I used to work in a prison, and two of the inmates there were part of a death cult in Ohio, and they were two of the surviving members. I tried to, I didn't get that much out of them, just because I was doing my job, so I didn't have much time to interrogate these people about their cult. But what I always ask myself is, "What is the goal of the person leading the vehicle? Are they utilizing these strategies in order to elicit admiration, or are they seeing that admiration as a useful tool to get material gain?" It's probably a mixture of both, and it's probably more prominent one way or the other, depending on who you're talking to. Some of them are probably just downright delusional, but I can see a lot of them being narcissistic. It's just I don't know enough about them to really be convinced one way or the other, I guess.

SPENCER: An interesting question that I think confuses people is, do narcissists know that they're narcissists? I want to point to a study I thought was fascinating on the single-item narcissism scale, called the SINS. Clever pun, I suppose. They designed a single question to try to tell if someone's a narcissist. The single question was, to what extent do you agree with this statement: I am a narcissist. Note the word narcissist means egotistical, self-focused, and vain. They found that the single question was quite correlated with much longer ways of measuring narcissism. It had a correlation of about 0.4 with the full-scale Narcissistic Personality Inventory, and they found it also correlated really well with a bunch of sub-traits of narcissism, like humanity, exhibitionism, exploitativeness, authority and superiority, and entitlement. This kind of suggests that maybe quite a lot of narcissists know they're narcissists, but don't necessarily view it as a bad thing. What do you think about that?

JACOB: I think, yeah, I love that you brought up the study because I find it to be one: I think it's hilarious, but two: I think it's very interesting, because I remember when I was first diagnosed and I was proud of it. I was like, "Yeah, I'm a mass manipulator. Yeah, I'm cold, yeah, I don't care about things." But I was being edgy, more or less. But I think what the study really illustrates, at least in my mind, is that most people who are narcissistic view it as a good thing, but also they don't fully understand what that means. When they think of narcissists, they're not thinking pathology-wise, they're not thinking, "Oh, this is something that's actually impacting my life." They're like, "Yeah, I'm a narcissist. I am better than people, I deserve to be, etc., etc." And I've heard so many people talk about how they have relatives, friends, partners who will take pride in it. Diana Diamond, I watched an interview with her once where she pointed out that usually there are two types of narcissistic people, the ones that can't wear it as a badge of honor, and then the ones that just can never hear it right. But I do think that's kind of a defense mechanism too. They kind of understand these things about themselves, and in order to spin it in a way that doesn't hurt their self-esteem, they spin it in a way that makes themselves look better. But yeah, it honestly doesn't surprise me at all. I think the biggest issue is just that a lot of these people aren't viewing it as a mental disorder you need help for. They're viewing it as just, "Yeah, I'm a narcissist. Fuck it. I am." And they just don't understand the implications of it.

SPENCER: Yeah, it's really interesting because it suggests there are sort of two ways of dealing with it. One is, "Oh no, I'm not a narcissist. You're just criticizing me. Fuck you." The other is, "I'm a narcissist, and that's fine." And both of those are a way of preserving the ego.

JACOB: Or more so not just, "I'm a narcissist and I'm fine." It's, "I'm a narcissist and better because of it." I think that's usually where it is. But I remember when I was younger and first diagnosed, I would be like, "Yeah, being a narcissist is a logical conclusion of human evolution. I was insane." I'm still insane, but you know what I mean.

SPENCER: Now, as a YouTube educator, I'm sure you're aware of what other people are saying about narcissism. How accurate do you think the general portrayals of narcissism are? Do you see a lot of inaccuracies?

JACOB: I don't want to generalize, obviously, but I would say the most common trend I see is that they get the behaviors right, but the motivations wrong. It's, "Oh, narcissists do X, Y, and Z because they want to hurt you. They want to control you." And I'm like, "Okay, I see where they're coming from." I would say 99% of the time, and I'm not going to call anybody out because I don't want problems, but 99% of the time, I'll identify these behaviors and then extrapolate motivations that just do not track for people who are narcissistic at the time. And there are some people who say, "Yeah, narcissists will stalk you." And I'm like, "Okay, maybe they will, but it's not significantly linked to narcissistic personality disorder. So that's kind of a generalization." What I keep seeing is that, frankly, narcissistic personality disorder as a topic has become so sensationalized to a point that it's a business model. You can make a YouTube channel about talking about various forms of abuse and blame it on narcissists, and then you're all of a sudden very popular. There's a reason that me, just some random dude from Ohio who one day used my phone to record myself talking about living with MPD, got popular as fast as I did. It's a very popular subject, and for a lot of people, they can make it very lucrative. I'm not going to say that this is all people who make content on narcissistic personality disorder, by the way. I do think there are a lot of people who are either well-meaning, even if they might be misinterpreting things, but I do think a lot of people see how lucrative it is to talk about this and are exploiting that in a dishonest way.

SPENCER: Do you think some of the people on YouTube who claim to be narcissists, who are kind of narcissist educators, are actually lying about being narcissists?

JACOB: Do you [laughs]?

SPENCER: I have suspicions. I don't know for sure, but there's an interesting thing where a lot of people struggle to tell the difference between narcissists and psychopaths, even though I think they're really fundamentally different. If you're just power-seeking and you're like, "Oh, I'll cash in on this narcissism thing by pretending to be a narcissist."

JACOB: I think there are — I'm never going to say names because I think there are a lot of them. I don't like using the term self-aware narcissist — self-aware narcissists on these apps that I know 100% definitely are, and I know they're diagnosed. Put it this way, there are a few people I've seen that I do think are misdiagnosed, and they kind of suspect it themselves, but they know the term is useful. I'm not confident about that. I don't want to make assumptions, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of them are just kind of using the term more willy-nilly in order to elicit a following. There's one person I saw relatively recently, actually, whose thing isn't being a narcissist. I've never talked to this person, so I don't know for sure, but it felt like he was just saying that he was strategically, and he didn't even say he was diagnosed. He would just self-identify as a narcissist. It rubbed me the wrong way, but it's hard to tell. It wouldn't surprise me.

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SPENCER: There are all these YouTube channels about how to deal with the narcissist in your life, and you can see why it's so popular because a lot of people feel hurt by narcissistic behavior. Do you think that they tend to be giving good advice? Or is there certain advice they're giving that you're like, "No, that's actually really bad advice if you're dealing with a narcissist?"

JACOB: There's one thing that I think almost all people who do content on NPD say is that you have to go "no contact." I think if you are being hurt by somebody or abused, that's good advice, hands down. I never want to tell somebody to stay in an abusive relationship. But also, they don't have any nuance with that kind of advice. I always tell the listener, "I don't know your situation. I don't know if that person's working on themselves. I don't know how severe the hurt you're experiencing is. I don't know what you're willing to come up with, what is okay for you. Every situation is different." And I hate that no contact has become such a trope because we are boiling down human relationships, which are very complicated and nuanced, into just the only option being "no contact." I do say that if you want to stay with somebody who is narcissistic or even just toxic in general, you do have to take them for who they are and not expect change, because I think that's unhealthy. But that's probably the one thing that I really do think is kind of not great advice. Some people can disagree with me, and I don't blame them for it. Okay, what are some of the things that you have heard people give as advice towards narcissistic people? I can tell you if I think it's good advice or not.

SPENCER: One thing is, people will say, "Five signs of a narcissist." And they'll kind of give these signs. I often feel like they're just too vague, or like they're things that normally people who are not narcissistic will do sometimes. So I guess, maybe I'll ask for a sort of positive version of that. Do you feel like you're able to tell who's a narcissist when you meet someone in person? If so, what are you looking for?

JACOB: No, I can't. I'll sometimes say that every dynamic in a video, "Oh signs of a narcissist." But I try to talk more about the internal experience, as opposed to something you can just see off the bat, because therapy sessions would be a lot easier if they could just have one sign. For example, I think hierarchical thinking is a very important part of narcissistic pathology. But here's the thing, I project way too much. I think that if you exhibit one narcissistic behavior, I'm automatically assuming, "Oh, you might be a narcissist, independent of the cause." I don't think narcissists are good at telling who else is a narcissist because, again, projection.

SPENCER: That's interesting. So there is one thing that I look for to assess if I think someone is a narcissist, and it's possible that I'm misassessing. But the main thing I'm looking for is if somehow, let's say, I meet someone new, if in the conversation, somehow everything seems to get redirected towards their ego, even in really indirect ways. I think that a lot of these ways, obviously, there's the really extreme bragger who's just like, "I'm the best and blah blah." But most narcissists, "There are people like that," but most narcissists are not so garish and ridiculous like that. But there's a sort of subtler redirection of everything to being about them, where it's like they ask about what you do for work, and you're starting to tell them, and then they chime in to show that they know so much about that. Or you're asking about their friend, and they immediately start telling you how their friend is the best person in the world. It's all these different ways where their ego is getting involved in every element of the conversation. So that's kind of the one sign I pay attention to.

JACOB: I would say that's pretty accurate. But I would also say that when certain narcissists realize that it's not a good way to get self-regulation by acting like they're a narcissist. Me, I kind of got a free pass because I just say I'm a narcissist, so I can do whatever I want. But there was another researcher, I can't remember who it was, who pointed out that they can be very subtle in terms of, "Oh, let's say they compliment your watch so that they have an excuse to then talk about their watch." They'll ask you about things about yourself and about your job, stuff like that, so that they can redirect it towards them later. I would say that, "Yes, that is 100% things narcissists do," but it's also because the presentations can be so different, it's never a silver bullet. You know what I mean?

SPENCER: Yeah. And, of course, you can't just diagnose someone by talking to them for 10 minutes, but you might have a little bit of suspicion. A friend of mine was dating someone who I believe is a narcissist, and she brought it up with me. She's like, "Do you think he's a narcissist?" And I was like, "Yeah, I kind of do." And she's like, "Yeah, but then I think about it, I'm like, he can't be a narcissist because he's so generous." And I was like, "Well, how is he generous?" She's like, "Well, he gives all this money away anonymously so nobody knows about it." I'm like, "That's interesting. How did you find out he literally gives away money?"

JACOB: I've actually done that.

SPENCER: But he persuaded her. It's funny. So you mentioned that you sometimes tell people you're a narcissist. So let's suppose you're at an event or party, and you mention the fact you're a narcissist. How do people react?

JACOB: Well, because usually I try to keep it on the down low as long as I can. Eventually, I have to say it just because I already have a presence on social media and everything, but I usually get through responses. The most common one is somebody I've known for a long time. It's kind of doubt at first, until they start thinking, "Oh, wait, that makes sense." The way that narcissists are presented, I mean, nobody acts like how a narcissist would be presented in any form of media. It usually takes a little bit to reflect on it. But then there are people who start viewing everything you do through a lens of manipulation and self-aggrandizement, and are really paranoid about it. That's the worst reaction I get. Then there are the ones that are honestly my preferred reaction, where you tell them and they just don't really care. There are more people that react like that than you would think, and that's honestly good. The only times I get negative reactions is when, before we start recording, I mentioned to you when somebody talks about, "Oh, my boyfriend's a narcissist," I express doubt about it, and eventually reveal I was a narcissist, a little bit of a daywalker myself, you could say. But those are the only times that people kind of get awkward about it, because they're like, "Oh, I've been talking about narcissists, and this guy is one," and I'm like, "I don't care. It is what it is."

SPENCER: That's interesting. I would think that people would have pretty negative reactions just given the sort of general feeling about narcissism in society.

JACOB: Because usually, if I know them well enough for me to actually tell them, they usually know something's up with me at that point. So they're just kind of like, "Man, whatever," and I kind of brush it off. I honestly like being viewed as an individual, as opposed to what the label says.

SPENCER: Why do you talk about narcissism in public? Why did you do that YouTube video? Why do you do your YouTube channel?

JACOB: So basically, I was at a point in my life where I burned bridges, and I didn't really feel like I could talk to anybody about it because I didn't want to talk to my friends about living precisely; it felt weird. So I went on YouTube to vent and to gain attention, obviously, but then it kind of exploded from there. Nowadays, I use it more to like, "Oh I am kind of curious about aspects of the human experience that I don't really understand a lot of the time." I genuinely enjoy comparing how my experience differs from other people's, and I would say that's what drives me mainly nowadays. I have thought quite a bit about stopping just because I feel like I've told my story, and I hate waking up with anxiety about what people say about me. But primarily right now, what drives me is just learning about myself and other people because I find it interesting.

SPENCER: Why do you go by the Nameless Narcissist? Were you anonymous at first, and then did you end up being willing to use your name later on?

JACOB: I revealed my name within my third video because I thought, "Oh, alliteration." I didn't really care about being anonymous. I thought there was irony in it, like, "Oh, every narcissist will never know who they are. I'm the nameless narcissist." So there's that paradoxical irony to it. I thought it was good branding, honestly. There wasn't that much thought put into it.

SPENCER: I considered a lot of different narcissists to invite onto the show, and I picked you. The reason I picked you is that watching your videos, I felt that you were more genuine; you actually are really thinking about what it feels like to be you. But it's also kind of surprising because it feels to me like you're doing less of trying to look good, which is sort of counterintuitive. You would think that instead of just saying what's really going on for you and what you're really feeling, you'd be trying to look good. So how do you explain that?

JACOB: Because for me, a big part of it is I realized, especially with all my YouTube, because I try to be a little more vulnerable. I have kind of neglected my YouTube lately. I need to get back on that. But my main thing was I spent my entire life not feeling comfortable talking about anything, and it felt easier talking to a screen. Eventually, I did. I always have those kinds of thoughts, and as time went on, I became more sympathetic towards some of the people when they told their stories. [inaudible] But I just had this mindset of, "They're not going to like me. They know I'm a narcissist. I'm not going to sacrifice my own ideals about this disorder just to gain popularity. They're not going to like me either way, so I might as well be honest about it." I've tried, and every now and then, I kind of get that in my head where, "I want to appeal more to the people that have these negative ideas about people like me." But I think I've been pretty good at keeping earnestness to it.

SPENCER: I think it can be tricky to do this kind of interview because there's a danger that you sort of end up falling prey to exactly the things we're talking about. Like, "Oh, well, I'm just feeding your ego. You're telling me what you think will cause me to believe that you're superior, etc." But I do feel like you do that a lot less than a lot of the narcissistic educators, so I don't quite know how you get to that place, but I do appreciate that, and it makes the interview feel realer.

JACOB: Here's the thing: I'm never going to be in your life again after this. It's an excuse for me to actually be able to talk about my earnest feelings, where I'm managing so many relationships outside of this that it takes a lot of pressure off of it, honestly. I'm like, "Yeah. Fuck it. Whatever."

SPENCER: In what way can narcissists be functioning, helpful, productive members of society? Obviously, there can be ways narcissists are more dangerous to get to know; they can be more hurtful. But also, presumably, there are places for them in society where everyone can benefit from them being there. So where do you see them fitting in?

JACOB: I agree. I think the important thing to touch upon is that without therapy, that's always going to be difficult. It's a disorder for a reason. This is going to be negatively impacting your life 99% of the time. But I feel like most people's knee-jerk reaction would be like, "Oh entertainment, social media, stuff like that." But nothing is so sensitive to critique a system. Independent work is very difficult because no matter what you do, you're going to be subject to scrutiny, and that can mess a lot of things up for them. I would say that anything that has to do with interpersonal relationships and building, especially short-term relationships. One study actually showed that, I think it was made in the same study you mentioned earlier, where narcissists make great first impressions, but over time, that declines. In any profession where you have to make short-term relationships, like maybe sales in some cases, but I was in sales, and being rejected really affected me. Anything where you have to make very brief connections with people to get your job done, I think that is by far where they would excel.

SPENCER: Especially when there's more of a positive feedback loop, rather than a punishing feedback loop, that makes sense. I know you've been to therapy, and you mentioned that you feel like that's something our show should do. In general, what do you feel is the benefit of therapy? In what way does it actually help you?

JACOB: For me, at first, it was really like, "Oh this person is just a sounding board for my internal thoughts I can't talk to anybody else about." But that also helped me, even at that point, to self-reflect and actually understand why I do the things I do. We suffer from lacking insight, a lot of times. We don't understand why we do what we do. Eventually, that evolved into a willingness to explore some of the things I was more closed off to in terms of trying to make connections with people. That's definitely the thing I have taken from therapy: being in a space where I can talk about these fears of mine, the anxieties, and then being able to apply that to my personal relationships, where I can take more risks. It's not perfect, and it never will be, but that's the main benefit I feel I get from it. Also, talking to my therapist, being like, "Hey, I did this messed up thing," and then she's like, "Did you consider X, Y, and Z about that?" I'm like, "Oh my god, no."

SPENCER: One thing that psychopaths have said to me is that sometimes they learn to behave differently because they realize that the behaviors they're engaging in naturally are not actually good for themselves. It's not that they're like, "Oh, well, I learned how to have compassion." It's just that they're like, "No, actually, I don't want my life to blow up every three years. I don't want to lose all my friends. That really sucks." I'm wondering, do you think therapy is helpful for narcissists in the same way?" like, "Hey, there's a cause and effect here. If you behave this way, it has this effect. If you can learn different behaviors, your life will actually be better."

JACOB: Oh, yeah, 100%. Again, that's one of the biggest things that kept me in therapy. I was sick of sabotaging everything I've ever done, and I've seen countless improvements in how I interact with a lot of people due to that. Like, "I know my life isn't good right now. I know I'm miserable. I know this isn't working for me." And I feel like early on in the treatment of NPD, that's probably always going to be the driving factor in treatment: them realizing, "Oh, man, my life is sucking right now. I need to fix it." That's an expectation that you thought therapists would have, that you need to fix my life right now. But eventually, it does get to a more vulnerable aspect of it, of what their real desires are in terms of human connection, loneliness, maybe trauma, stuff like that.

SPENCER: I may have told you earlier that I think it's really wise, which is, don't expect the nurses of your life to change. Not to say that people can't change, not to say it's impossible. But I think that's wise, because if that's your expectation, that this person is going to change, a lot of times you're going to be very hurt and disappointed. However, if you learn to understand what they're really like, that can help you engage with them more productively. Then you could say, "Well, given who they are, assuming they're not going to change, do I want this person in my life or not?" You can make a more informed decision.

JACOB: I agree. I feel like a lot of the time it's easier. I had a girlfriend once who told me that when she was in a relationship with me, she felt like I hated her almost, and I wasn't good at expressing myself at the time. I'm not saying she should have stayed with me, obviously. But I feel like with a lot of people, if they have a loved one in their life, whether it be a partner, relative, or whatever, it's easier to handle when you understand the motivating factors behind it, even if you're not expecting change. I don't think it's smart to stay with somebody with the expectation they're going to change as a person. I really think that the efficacy of the relationship can get to a point that it parallels something healthy if there is this effort towards mutual understanding. It's obviously more complicated than that, because narcissists are "we are what we are."

SPENCER: Suppose someone has an important relationship in their life with a narcissist, and they've thought about it, and they're like, "No, I do want this person in my life." Maybe it's a family member, maybe it's a partner, maybe it's just a close longtime friend, and they decide, "No, I want to have a relationship with this person. I don't want to cut them out." What advice would you have for them?

JACOB: I would advise reading Wendy T. Behary's book. She's a therapist who specializes in these kinds of relationships. It's called Disarming the Narcissist. Really phenomenal book in terms of that. I would say that the most, because I actually asked one of my friends about this once, and they said that for them, what they had to learn about me is one: you can't let your entire life revolve around me, first of all. But when you set up a boundary or talk to them about it, you have to set the boundary and not move it at all. You can't push it because then I'll feel misunderstood or I'll get defensive. If you backtrack on it, I'm going to walk all over you. So you have to figure out what your boundaries are and then enforce them 100% of the time, which is exhausting.

SPENCER: What's an example where someone's done that with you? Do you think it effectively, where you felt like they did a good job of it?

JACOB: I had one friend who, basically, I would go on my insane, grandiose rants saying, "Oh my God, nobody understands me or hates me. This is too much. Screw everybody," and just ramble and rave to them. They eventually did, at one point, just kind of say, "Listen, you need to talk to me beforehand and see if I'm in a space where I can handle you going off the ramp or something." At first, I was a little offended, but I was like, "Fair enough." There were a couple of times I did try to push it because I was just in a mood, and they would see, and let's say I texted them or something. I said something crazy like that. They just wouldn't reply. They replied to me the next day when I calmed down. But also, they didn't completely cut me off from ever venting to them. Basically, I need to be in a space where I can handle that, and you need to make sure that I am before you go on that kind of rant.

SPENCER: Would you say it's especially dangerous for someone who's bad at asserting their boundaries to have a close relationship with a narcissist?

JACOB: It depends. But I would say, generally, yes, I would say it's dangerous. I would say with anybody suffering from mental illness to a certain degree, it would be dangerous. I don't know if it's especially dangerous, but I would say that you are definitely at risk for letting this person blend into your life; you're going to be thinking about them 24/7. This one's really hard because you see so many people who get anxious about being narcissists, and it's usually not out of concern of, "Oh, I have this pathology that might impact my life." It's usually about what this means for that person. I feel like a lot of these people need to think outside of that lens and consider, "Okay, maybe I am a narcissist. How is this impacting me and the people around me?" You need to be able to assess it in a way that's accurate because otherwise you're just going to be wrapped up in, "What if I'm a bad person?" Don't make it a moral judgment on yourself. Make it an assessment of yourself based on your own mental health. If you do come to the conclusion, "Oh, I think I am a narcissist." I would advise reading a book called "Unmasking Narcissism" by Mark Ettensohn, who's an amazing expert on narcissism. There are forums for people who are diagnosed with NPD, especially on Reddit and stuff like that. I would also advise staying away from most social media content about narcissists just because that's going to enforce a lot of shame that you're already feeling surrounding it. Also, find a good therapist who specializes in personality disorders because a lot of times you can't get the help that you need from a run-of-the-mill therapist. If they specialize in a different area, they often don't really know what they're dealing with because they aren't used to dealing with pathological narcissism. Other than that, I don't like advising people to tell others about your diagnosis because it can blow up in your face, but find one person that you can talk to about it openly in a healthy way.

SPENCER: I've heard that some therapists just don't want to treat personality disorders. Maybe some will treat some personality disorders, but not others. Is that a situation where some people just get rejected by therapists?

JACOB:): Yeah, usually if they specialize in one personality disorder. Some will treat a couple of others as well. But I mean, I've been rejected by therapists because I have NPD, and I know people with borderline personality disorder who have been rejected by therapists because of that. There is a lot of stigma regarding these conditions, even within medical communities.

SPENCER: Do you think it's better to be upfront right away with the therapist and be like, "Hey, look, I'm looking for someone. I think I might have NPD. I'm looking for someone to work on this with." Is that something you do? Just so you don't kind of get in that situation where you get to session five, and then they're like, "Oh, wait, I don't want to work with you."

JACOB: I would say, yeah, honestly, because here's the thing, if a therapist doesn't feel comfortable treating a personality disorder, they're not going to be able to give you the treatment that you need. So I do feel being upfront with it is going to save your time and theirs.

SPENCER: What's the best way for someone to find out if they might be narcissistic? Obviously, going to a therapist and getting a real diagnosis is great. But is there something else you'd recommend, taking the Narcissistic Personality Inventory or anything like that?

JACOB: I would say that the main one, there's one called the Pathological Narcissism Inventory that measures both grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. And there's a free version of it online somewhere. It's nothing concrete, but it's the best test that I've seen that is any sort of indication.

SPENCER: You've mentioned this idea of grandiose versus vulnerable a couple of times. Is it something that every narcissist kind of flips between the two, or is it more like a stable trait where some are grandiose and some are vulnerable?

JACOB: It varies from person to person, but generally speaking, there is actually one fascinating study that was measuring the relationship between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, and they found that there wasn't a relation between the two until grandiosity got to the 70th percentile. At that point, the more grandiose you were, the more vulnerable you were as well. Usually, what you see is the more extreme narcissistic traits you have, the more likely you are to exhibit both of them. But that isn't universal, obviously.

SPENCER: And then grandiose is more about having a really high opinion of yourself, arrogance, dominance, and maybe extraversion too, whereas vulnerable is more introverted, defensive, and sensitive.

JACOB: Yes, usually the best way, if we're looking at the Big Five personality types, the biggest differences are, well, the only real differences are that people who are more grandiose presenting, they'll be more extroverted and less neurotic, as opposed to people who are more vulnerable presenting, who will be more introverted and more neurotic.

SPENCER: Final question for you, people have just listened to you talk about narcissism for a long time. If there's one thing that you really want to stick with them, what would it be from our conversation?

JACOB: I would like my main takeaway for people from any video or what I do to be that, "We can be pretty shitty people." Don't get me wrong. We do hurt people, and it's okay to acknowledge that. But I feel it's important for everyone to recognize the humanity behind the condition. This wasn't someone trying to hurt you for the sake of hurting you. It was someone who is very sick and may never get the help they need. That sucks, but it's not helpful for anybody to take it personally or to demonize the condition itself.

SPENCER: Jacob, thank you so much for coming on.

JACOB: No problem. I'm glad that you have me.

[outro]

JOSH: A listener asks, "Have you ever chosen to pursue career or personal goals over a relationship or vice versa? And how do you feel about it now?"

SPENCER: I never have chosen personal professional goals over relationship, but that's not because I don't deeply care about my personal and professional goals. I really do care about them because I'm trying to create a lot of what I value in the world. And that's very important to me. It's just that I've never found them to really be fundamentally at odds with a relationship where I couldn't navigate that. I mean, I have had, for example, relationships in the past where due to working really hard, that was somewhat frustrating for, let's say, a past romantic partner. But we were able to navigate it. I was able to find some kind of balance that kind of worked for both pursuing my goals and for that person. So I think that there obviously can be situations where they really come at odds, where let's say a partner wants you to move to a certain place where they can pursue their career. But if you move to that place, you can't pursue your career. And then there might be some real fundamental trade-offs, and those can be serious. And then the way I would approach that is going back to your values and saying, "Well, how much do I value different things fundamentally? And how much of those values am I creating or am I getting if I take the different options?" And there can be a trade-off there.